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I cannot find my question on programmers.stackexchange. It was today deleted. But I cannot find any notification about that. It lasted about a week and suddenly disappeared. Negative reputation was not (one upvote, one star). It was closed as "on hold" in first day.

But as I know the "on hold" not means deletion mark. How I can know who delete this my question forever?

P.S.

I found this question. Here is link to it. Why doesnt the Dart Team follow-their own style guide? Should I follow it?

I cannot undestand what was wrong with it.

What rules have been violated?

Why moderator removed completely innocuous question, which contained only the facts and nothing but the facts?

Naturally facts raise questions. Why questions about facts considered impaired?

Maybe the moderator has the right to delete any questions?

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    The problem I have with questions like this is... we're not the Dart team. So how would we know their motivations? You should probably ask the people who would know the answer to this... the Dart team. – GrandmasterB Feb 14 '14 at 6:33
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    I'd just like to point out that the question was closed and deleted by regular users, not moderators. – ChrisF Feb 14 '14 at 7:05
  • @ChrisF I can see only "This question was removed from Programmers Stack Exchange for reasons of moderation". – mezoni Feb 14 '14 at 7:13
  • @mezoni see A Theory of Moderation in SE blog: "We designed the Stack Exchange network engine to be mostly self-regulating, in that we amortize the overall moderation cost of the system across thousands of teeny-tiny slices of effort contributed by regular, everyday users..." – gnat Feb 14 '14 at 10:45
  • @gnat Exactly. Who wants to endure when someone (as me) wash the dirty linen in public? You personally have deleted my question and, of course, you know about whom I tell. – mezoni Feb 14 '14 at 11:45
  • in comment above you wrote I can see only "This question was removed from Programmers Stack Exchange for reasons of moderation", now you tell I deleted your question, could you please pick and stick with one way you see things. Wrt deletion-forever, take a look at MSO FAQ "How can I undelete one of my posts..." – gnat Feb 14 '14 at 11:57
  • @gnat As the author of question I can see these info "deleted by gnat, GlenH7, MichaelT 17 hours ago". But other people just seeing "This question was removed from Programmers Stack Exchange for reasons of moderation". Why you ask me about that? What is not clear here you found? I found it in Google cache and look on it as not logged user. – mezoni Feb 14 '14 at 12:22
  • @gnat "Deleted forever" means that it available for me only if know it url. I am author but in the list of my questions it not appears. Where I can found it if it removed even from my personal area? How I can find it as author? Only, thanks to Google that I can find it in cache. On stackoverflow all deleted question visible in my pesonal area. Or programmers.stackexchange is something different? Or you hide it from me? – mezoni Feb 14 '14 at 12:36
  • on Programmers this is expected to work for you exactly the same way as it does at SO, and actually at all the sites in Stack Exchange network. Now that you mentioned SO, are you aware that cross-posting is strictly frowned upon? If yes, why did you do it to this question? stackoverflow.com/questions/21674874/… – gnat Feb 14 '14 at 12:43
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There is a balancing act that is being walked between the "everything is downvoted and closed" and the "you delete things too soon". The stress between these two philosophies has also gotten a touch more stressed with an interpretation of an answer elsemeta.

It is quite possible that we've been overeager with deleting things quickly. That said, it may have eventually have gotten deleted on its own without intervention (arguably though the faster delete tries to reduce the perception of lost rep if something was upvoted... a bit of thought does go into what to delete or not).

Deletion of the question was not about breaking rules (or not) but rather an attempt at hastening the ultimate janitorial actions. And sometimes we delete fast because we don't want to forget to delete it later (there isn't a "delete queue" like there is for close votes and once it falls from view it becomes more difficult for people to delete what (ultimately) (debatably) should be deleted).

It would ultimately be deleted somehow. If its done a few days after the question was asked or a week, or a month... its (arguably) just a matter of time. In its current state, it is unlikely to have been reopened.


The question itself is really unanswerable by anyone not part of the Dart Team. It requires one to go and ask them and any of us are equally capable of doing that compared to what you can do (this 'ask them' has been done before and can be done as a good question - you may consider flagging the question for reopening if you find the answer to then do a self answer of the question). Note that the reception of how well the question and interesting the question to the community as a whole is as fickle as the community itself.

The problem with the question is that it is asking other people to do work for you that you are just as capable as doing yourself. This applies to questions where people ask them to (basically) search google or quote wikipedia for them too.

Also with the edit, you've edited in an answer from the Dart team - though clarifications for the question:

Do I understand correctly that..

  • They shouldn't be using type annotations for locals but they use it.
  • This is not an indicator of quality, but just a bug. Becuase they written by a Dart team member but not by other person.
  • There is no "why" here because it is better to remain silent than to say unpleasant things.
  • Dart Team can forget to fix this if someone does not file a ticket.

needs to be asked of the Dart team, not P.SE.

I will point out that this clarification didn't help the question. In my reading of it, the third point combined with the main question reads like a rant about a style guide (or inconstant following of it). To that, I've read a number of unpleasant comment threads in other questions that have a rant-like tone (again my reading of the question) that become wholesale delete the entire comments (and sometimes lock the question while the participants simmer down). To this, quickly deleting the question quickly can help reduce the total amount of janitorial work that needs mod involvement (and thats where my vote came from).

  • Your thoughts pretty well sum up why I cast my delete vote on that question. The edit and requests for clarification are what made my final determination. The clarifying questions in the edit were likely to stir up debate within the comments and they were not going to get the question re-opened. Some of those are just misunderstandings between native & non-native English speakers. But the choice of phrasing was poor and I couldn't find a way to edit them into better form. – GlenH7 Feb 14 '14 at 23:54
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If you phrase questions in a way they sound that some kind of "mind reading" is needed to answer them, expect them to be closed soon, because "mind reading" is nothing but guessing, that's too opinion-based.

I guess you could have phrased your question differently - for example, ask about the meaning of some specific rules of the darts style guide, what advantages or disadvantages they have (and then you could give a remark about the fact the dart team does not follow that rule in lots of examples). But don't put the actions of the Dart team or the reasoing behind them in the focus of your question.

  • The fact is that the it was quite reasonable questions just based on the facts, such as official responses from Dart Team. If Dart officially answers "We don't have answers on your questions Why". How I must understand these actions from Dart Team? Of course, I have to ask this question publicly. What happened? Should I use Dart Team products if they give answers in this manners? – mezoni Feb 14 '14 at 7:09
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    @mezoni: if you ask a question on PSE, you ask the PSE community and not the dart team. You were either asking at the wrong place, or the wrong thing. I gave you a constructive advice how to change your question to make it more unlikely to be closed - take it or leave it. – Doc Brown Feb 14 '14 at 7:23
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As the person who cast the third delete vote, I thought I would add some additional perspective as to why I cast the vote when I did. Please consider this as supplementary to MichaelT's answer

Normally, I won't vote-to-delete on a question as recently closed as yours was. But the follow-up edit that you put in place after the question was closed is what made up my mind.

Let me address some of your meta questions:

I cannot undestand what was wrong with it.
What rules have been violated?

Your question is asking about the norms of a 3rd party package unrelated to the Programmers site. That alone is enough to make it off-topic, and that's why it was closed as "primarily opinion based." Loosely translated, that means the Programmers community is not able to give you an evidence or experience backed answer that would meet the site guidelines.

Please note that the one answer your question received was pure speculation and wrong.

Why moderator removed completely innocuous question, which contained only the facts and nothing but the facts?

The community (not a moderator) voted to delete your question. ChrisF pointed that out in the comments, and I want to repeat that it was a community decision. The three of us that voted to delete your question take the privilege to delete posts seriously, and we take responsibility for our decisions. Part of that responsibility means explaining our decisions, which is why I'm writing this response.

Your question was not innocuous and it did not contain nothing but the facts.

You did the right thing in contacting the Dart team to ask why there was an issue. Had your question been on-topic, you could have taken their reply and used it as a self-answer to your own question.

But you didn't, and the nature of your additional questions to their reply is what made up my mind to vote to delete.

You added in this answer from Dart Team member Bob Nystrom:

There is no why here.
It's a bug in the examples.
They shouldn't be using type annotations for locals.
Can you file a ticket so we don't forget to fix this please? Thanks!

And then you asked:

Do I understand correctly that..
1. They shouldn't be using type annotations for locals but they use it.
2. This is not an indicator of quality, but just a bug. Becuase they written by a
 Dart team member but not by other person.
3. There is no "why" here because it is better to remain silent than to say 
unpleasant things.
4. Dart Team can forget to fix this if someone does not file a ticket.

Editorial note, I have numbered your questions to make them easier to identify

Items 1 and 2 aren't really questions and appear to be just bashing the Dart team. I'll admit it's hard to tell what you're really asking because of the communication barrier.

Item 3 is where I saw your question turning into a rant about the Dart team and why I feared a long comment thread that would need to be cleaned up. In particular, it is better to remain silent than to say unpleasant things is inflammatory and you're almost asking to start a bashing session.

The tone of 3 biased how I read 4, and I couldn't see anything positive coming from leaving the question in place. The tone of those follow-up questions is not innocuous. So I voted to delete in order to prevent a minor flame war from breaking out in the comments of the question.

All that said, I'll grant that there were some communication issues and in this case, we deleted your question too early. So I apologize for the quick deletion, but I don't see how your question could be salvaged to be made more constructive.


And if it helps, this is my opinion of what the Dart team was trying to say.
Yes, please note that we're still in the "primarily opinion based" justification for closing the question.

There is no why here.
It's a bug in the examples.
They shouldn't be using type annotations for locals.

Translated: Your original assumption about their example was correct and you found a bug. There isn't any other reason behind that issue - hence "there is no why here."

Can you file a ticket so we don't forget to fix this please? Thanks!

Translated: I'm really busy right now and don't have the time or enough details to enter a proper bug report. Please enter a bug report so the team doesn't forget about it existing and so it can be prioritized.

Also keep in mind that on some projects, entering a valid bug report is seen as bragging rights. It means the person found a legitimate issue within the product and helped start the process to get it fixed. That sort of activity can be used by some projects to determine who they will let contribute to the project.

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