Open letter to students with homework problems

Question

It is September once again (today is the 8755^th day of September), and once again students are asking their homework problems on Stack Overflow and SoftwareEngineering.SE.

We start seeing questions like:

A car dealer has 10 salespersons. Each salesperson keeps track of the number of cars sold each month and reports it to the management at the end of the month. The management keeps the data in a file and assigns a number, 1 to 10, to each salesperson....

Write the code to store the number of cars sold by each salesperson in the array cars, output the total numbers of cars sold at the end each month, and output the salesperson number selling the maximum number of cars. (Assume that data is in the file cars.dat, and that this file has been opened using the ifstream variable inFile.)

The first thing to understand is that we are not a code writing service. You can't just copy/paste a homework into the text area and expect someone to do your homework for you.

Programmer education builds upon previous experiences. The compiler class has machine language and data structures as prerequisites because if you don't understand those, you will be hopelessly lost in the class and not even able to understand the lectures.

Lets assume you do understand the code (the person answering the question did a good job explaining it)... the curriculum is designed to take you from A to Z with 24 steps between. As industry programmers we often take shortcuts and don't need say, steps ijkl to do something. Learning from us, you'll never get these steps. However you may find in your next assignment or class that understanding jk is assumed and critical to the understanding of some other concepts. Just because we don't need ijkl to do it doesn't mean it isn't understood.

A programming class I took years ago used SPIM - a MIPS simulator. One of the students discovered a little-used DECStation in the lab that had gcc on it. Instead of writing the assignment (factorial) by hand with the concepts we had access to (we were supposed to write a recursive function to learn about the stack and frame pointer), he wrote it in C, compiled it with gcc -S and handed in the resulting MIPS assembler code. However, the compiler, recognizing an optimization, converted the entire code from a recursive subroutine into a for loop. He got a '0' on that homework and had trouble with the next one (which assumed you already understood the frame pointer and stack pointer).

Copy and paste takes no skill. It cheats you out of the education you are paying to get.

It cheats us of good interview candidates. Technical interviewers often complain about the quality of college graduates. You may be enthusiastic, but unless you can write code and explain concepts better than the other person, we're going to hire the other person.

Your first resource to look at should be your instructor. They are there for you and want to have you follow a specific path to get to the end point of understanding.

---

So, you've exhausted the resources. You've gone over your lecture notes. You've searched google. You've asked your peers and knocked on the TA's door during office hours. You've even tried asking your instructor. And you've come here...

Don't expect an answer in any given time frame. The urgency of your question is not something we are concerned with. Good questions and answers are timeless - not something that needs to be done by 5pm today or 8am on Monday (you may find the rate of answers drops substantially on the weekends and evenings of various timezones).

Describe the problem you are having, what your understanding of the problem is and where you are confused. For a question from a student, the best questions are often the ones that are asking how to take a single step in understanding rather than trying to leap all the way to the solution.

Realize also that the answer we give you may be completely wrong for the path that your instructor is trying to get you to follow. Having previously fought through the problem ourselves, we know and understand when one can jump directly from il and when one needs to go through each step of ijkl in a process. Our answers may skip over steps that aren't needed for this particular problem, but may be critical for understanding the next assignment or some problem years down the road where skipping jk is the wrong answer. In many cases, it is important to follow the curriculum as best as you are able. Going above and beyond is good where one gains a deeper understanding of a problem domain, but one must have the foundation upon which to build.

We want you to do your homework to the best of your ability. Getting points off on an assignment and learning something from that produces a better interview candidate than one who can copy and paste code that got As in school but can't solve a simple problem they've never seen before.

---

If you decide to post your question anyway

Please make sure you read the tour and help center. Software Engineering focuses on software design and architecture. Questions about "how to write some code" or "help me debug this code" are off topic on SoftwareEngineering.SE as they are issues with implementation rather than design. They may be on topic on Stack Overflow, but just posting the requirements or code and saying what amounts to "help me" is rarely enough for a good question - make sure you read How to create a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable example before posting a question on Stack Overflow.

If your question on SoftwareEngineering.SE is just a copy paste of homework problem, expect it to be downvoted, closed, and deleted - potentially in quite short order.

Answer 1

I agree with this open letter. I guess it's more directed at the people potentially answering this kind of thoughtless questions, because the people asking them -- more often than not Help Vampires -- will never read meta, or the FAQ, or try to understand the issues involved. So I guess it could be rephrased to say: "potential answerers, don't encourage these questions with answers, but downvote and close them instead".

Wasn't the purpose of StackExchange, as stated by Jeff Atwood, to increase the signal-to-noise ratio of the internet? This kind of questions reduce the ratio, plain and simple.

Don't encourage Help Vampires. Educate them, if you can, but know it's an uphill battle.

Answer 2

An Open Response

• Does this belong on P.SE meta?
• If so, should we expect and accept similar posts from other users?
• Chances are, the students who paste homework don't read P.SE meta.
• Your evidence in anecdotal. I could offer a story of how my education was saved by scooping the answer to a stubborn problem from the interwebs, which gave me time to focus on more important parts of a difficult class.
• You assume that everyone shares your values. Things that are meaningful and valuable to you aren't necessarily meaningful and valuable to others.
• Besides, pasted homework questions are adequately defined as out-of-bounds in the FAQ and many other meta posts.
• The basic question you cite in a comment as a good homework question already received several downvotes, a close vote, and a warning from gnat. Even if a student wants to ask a good question, it's not easy. I've seen basic questions closed because they were too basic. More involved questions are often closed because the student (or any other learner) may not have enough experience to articulate their root problem.

I agree that the "car dealer has 10 salespersons..." is bad. It's too localized. Simple. I just don't see how your question/open letter helps prevent it.

Answer 3

I think if a student is so lazy that they ask homework questions on this site, they are definitely too lazy to read this long open letter. Plus, this sort of thing should be directed at the people who answer homework problems. If people would simply refuse to answer obvious homework problems, the incentive to ask them will be removed.

Answer 4

This letter is missing something.

Software engineers enjoy solving problems and building things with computers. If a typical homework problem seems like a boring drudge, or 'too hard' for you, you're going to hate working as a software engineer.

Software engineers need to learn new things all the time. Every day can be like a homework question for something you haven't been taught yet, and needs to researched.

You can cheat your way to a qualification, and bluff your way into a job, but you can't cheat or bluff a computer. The job won't last long and you'll have wasted years when you could have studied something that interested and inspired you.

Answer 5

I agree that cheating is the worst thing a student can do; Not because it is dirty or manipulative, but because it causes significant harm to the student and the student along.

However, even some the most intelligent people in the worlds history (Einstein and Edison for example) have/had problems understanding even simple problems if they were not described in a language that they related to. To the point that many are/were considered "dumb" or "delayed".

It's the same system that leaves countless thousands of young people struggling to divide crates of apples and bananas in math class just to excel in calculating fuel:air ratios for fuel injection systems in shop class. Present the problem in a way that engages the student and they quickly understand things that they often felt was beyond them.

What I'm getting at is the greater question of why the student feels they need help with a problem. Assuming that they should only need help applying the concepts within the solution assumes that they should be able to fully understand the problem, which history has proven is a dangerous generalization during somebodies education.

I'm not saying that the basic point of your letter is wrong or unneeded, however your letter does seem a bit presumptuous and possibly negative towards people who need help.

Answer 6

SO and this community has gained a reputation that many of users do dream of following the trend. We see Jon Skeet and many many other.

I completely agree that asking for solutions against homework is not good. But if the user tried something, did researched on the topic and is stuck with it, that makes the question valid.

Asking good question and getting recognition is different topic. The point here is start to this community. I am so much obliged that this community has extended help to all those who seek the help!

Students face different situations as we do in work culture. I just hope we can make a difference by enlightenment to technology areas. I sincerely hope only start is the difficult part, once you get started the next steps follows easily.

Answer 7

I think there needs to be a flag for questions which have not been researched or could be found anywhere on the internet. Promoting questions which have answers which could be found in a matter of minutes on a search engine ought to be frowned upon.

Recently I have been observing questions on Programmers and Stackoverflow regarding interview questions. A user failed an interview and wants the answer. I feel like these questions, like those asked by students, can be damaging to the Software Programmer community at large.

I wonder if there is some way a policy could be developed to help handle these types of concerns.

Answer 8

There's little to disagree with in there but there are a few points maybe worth mentioning.

1. For some people getting better marks and a degree by whatever means it takes is more important than anything else. This view is often ingrained in the education system of a country, or is something kids grow up with at home. Either way, there's nothing you or I could do to change this, certainly not as contributors to SE, so it is what it is.
2. There are others then who are willing to learn but simply don't know any better. They post their assignments on SO because that's the first thing that comes to their mind. These people are willing to take hints on possible paths to take and are quite happy to be led to the solution step by step...except this is a very bad fit for a Q&A site. There really should be a site set up to do exactly that but as far as I know, there isn't yet.
3. I remember well when I was a student and I can tell you that very few of us had any notion of conscious self-improvement, even though a lot of us had been hobbyist coders from a young age. Self-improvement, job interviews or any kind of bigger picture just didn't occur to us.

Now of course all of the above is based on anecdotal evidence, though I'm certain that all these types do exist because I've seen them. But I've got no idea how big each of these groups are, whether there are any other groups and so on. And I don't think anyone else has either. It'd be nice to see it researched though, so if any sociology students are reading this... :)

Answer 9

Homework and projects can count for a large part of a grade, but there should be some sort of exam (maybe that is proctored) that has enough complexity to it and a time limit that makes SO not practical. A large code quality discrepancy between the tests and other tasks should be a red flag for cheating.

All questions should indicate some effort by the OP and not just ask for all the coding to be done for them whether it's homework or not.

If the "copy and pasters" can't get a job, they'll just have to spend more time actually learning to program and/or pay for additional training. Good programmers are hard to find, but if you can't spot a bad one, get someone else to do your hiring.

Imagine a company (not a software company but someone developing an internal app) that hires one beginner programmer, but puts the app on Github as an open source project or several posts on SO to get free coding. This wouldn't be good for the profession either.

Answer 10

A minor addendum, but I think worth adding separately: the thoughts outlined in the question are correct, but here:

So, you've exhausted the resources. You've tried asking your instructor.

The instructor is very much not the first first resource to use. Given the fact that this open letter is shown to many newbies on various communities, it should be more precise.

Resources are:

• The material that is given to a student during class. That might include a wide range of printed or online media, specifically intended for that class.
• The peers! We really shouldn't send students to talk to their instructor first. Instead: tell them to form teams, and work together (insofar as the assignment setup allows for that)
• Then the internet, then the instructor.

The only good reason to deviate from that order would be if some assignment is really unclear, or considered at fault.

Answer 11

Solution: create homework.stackexchange.com where those trying to get a fast one have the tables turned on them upon entering a valid question, where a valid question on Homework.SE would be as simple as a copy paste of the assignment.

The moment someone answers with google.com, let that automatically be set as the correct answer. Nah, just kidding, but most of the issue is finding information quickly so that a student can just get an assignment done, so answers on said site shouldn't be focused on doing the assignment for them; rather, focused towards what essentially amounts to hand-held problem solving and giving them the resources to solve it themselves, and maybe try showing them as gently as possible how absurd it is that they don't want to put in the least effort to solve the most trivial problems.

What more is that it can be a means to direct misguided students towards a better future and a proper path. One does not simply copy and paste an assignment unless one is disinterested in the course it came from--in which case it's more like a LifeAdvice.SE under a Homework.SE alias. Imagine that: a place where people can collectively share their experiences and wisdom in learning as students (of which every person on earth is) whether it be in primary school or otherwise.

Yes, we all get how stupid and annoying literally every word problem is from public school, particularly in America, especially in Mathematics, and I agree that SE in general isn't the place, but as everyone unfamiliar with SE as a student is thinking this is the place to post homework questions, why not actually solve students' homework troubles in a dedicated site? Then we can migrate all existing homework or homework-related questions to Homework.SE, and that isolates the problem. It could even be converted to maybe a sort of hired tutoring service for those willing and generous enough to do it for free (I'm assuming that's most people on here given that everything is posted gratis). Quite different from what SE is, but it would certainly fix the problem.

This certainly isn't a true solution, however. This only solves the problem of decluttering SE. It doesn't solve the fundamental cause of such homework questions in the first place: a subpar academic system in much need of reform and improvement globally. What would the best academic system look like? One that begins at infancy, with the parents as their first teachers (as they should be), constantly looking to see what the student's intellectual interests are until it is narrowed down to a single object, with all classes being oriented more and more towards that particular interest over time such that by the time everyone is in university or research-level learning, everyone knows exactly what he wants to be and do the moment he reaches the age of majority.

This school system failed me hard. Let's try to give the homework question askers the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he's just lost and doesn't really know what he wants in life for a career. I was blessed to know what career I wanted before I began high school here in the US four years prior to ninth grade.

Answer 12

The target audience of this letter is not going to read a wall of text like this. Doubly so if they are loaded with coursework.

Answer 13

There is a dinosauric component to this eruption of frustration. In the pre-ubiquitous-internet-age, the solution for an assignment would be in the student's notes or in a book the teacher told him to read. We would "copy and paste" that solution, either from memory or textbook, and get a good grade in return. And somehow some geezers find that more worthy than finding answers on the internet.

We were mindless time managing copy-monkeys just like the target audience of this post, the only difference is that the books did not smack us in the face to tell us we were not thinking as we were doing it.

It is all in the game. It isn't easy to get effortless pan-ready answers here. Of course some students will try and if they do it in a smart way they may even succeed. It is up to the experienced lot to turn those fishing practices into learning experiences. After all, that is what we are here for, are we not?