How can we avoid Programmers.SE from becoming the SE black sheep?

Question

One of the topics that's come up several times on Meta.StackOverflow is the perception that Programmers.SE is a joke proposal, existing solely to help keep Stack Overflow free of all the "crappy" questions that it gets plagued with every day.

A few of examples of this perception (note: see Edits 2 and 3 below for clarification):

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From Is the Software Engineering site proposal a duplicate of programmers.SE?:

You absolutely nailed my resentment of Programmers.SE; it was created as a tongue-in-cheek, NOT-Stack-Overflow site: the stuff we keep in the basement because it's not fit for keeping upstairs.

—Robert Cartaino

The problem is that Programmers.SE was created as an amorphous blob where nothing is off topic (read: everything not Stack Overflow is on topic). The travesty is that Programmers.SE is, at least in perception, [your quote] "an ocean of jokes and polls." That's where the problem lies. I would have created the site very differently: Subjective/soft programming topics okay; Industry/engineering issues okay; The business of software okay; Banal polls/jokes off-topic.

—Robert Cartaino

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From Programmers on stackexchange:

So what you are saying is that Programmers.SE is the skin of evil left behind to free the race of titans from the bonds of destructiveness: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ims5W5bJl9s&feature=related#t=11s

—Robert Cartaino

If you browse questions on Meta for a bit, you'll quickly realize that there are a fair number of people who want to use SO for things that SO wasn't designed to be used for: discussions, polls, flame-wars, endless lists... And over time, this has created some amount of irritation on the site: some folks really, really want to, um, participate in questions like,

• What's the single best way to type code?
• Do you hurt sometimes (as a programmer)?
• How can I get a job drawing cartoons featuring the funniest programmer joke about my favorite hidden feature in the worst language ever (on a boat)?

So rather than just stamping them out, like so many ducks putting out flaming elephants, some rose-tint-spectacled user got the idea of proposing a site for all the questions that shouldn't be asked on SO.

Programmers.SE is that site. Soon, it'll have its own set of rules and standards, and the cycle will begin anew. But until then, it remains an anarchic paradise of freedom and love.

—Shog9

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I'm not going to challenge the premise behind the sentiment: in many ways, that was the purpose of the proposal, and Programmers.SE is flourishing despite it.

But I'm wondering if there's a way we can spin the content of this site more positively rather than being merely a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

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Edit

One of the things that's popping up here is we should leave Programmers.SE alone because it's popular and as Nathan Taylor puts it, "Haters gonna hate."

I don't think the content or community Programmers.SE needs changing per se. Rather, I think we just need to provide a clear way to show value to SOIS and others, because the current perception is that we don't, and this site is more or less a joke that's gotten out of hand.

So how can we do that?

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Edit 2

Looks like SOIS has decided to publicly address the banality of Programmers.SE on its blog:

There’s an even longer list of things that really belong on the new Programmers Stack Exchange, which appears to be degrading into fairly stupid water-cooler nonsense, and could benefit from an infusion of more meaty subjects, like these proposals:

I've created a new question, What questions are on topic, and what are off topic?, to see if we can hash out the proposed merges and other off-topic questions that have come up so far.

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Edit 3

Robert Cartaino clarified his position and the quotes above in the comments:

I don't actively despise the concept of Programmers.SE at all. Read my quotes (above) very carefully. What I lament is the perception created; the "anything goes" ethos that simply aims to flout what makes Stack Overflow great. I wanted a site about the "Programmers' Life: a site for discussion of the business, careers, issues, and memes concerning professional developers." Subjective talk and soft topics okay if it follows a "back it up" philosophy or hard-earned experience. What I got instead was "what is the coolest/stupidest/weirdest/funniest thing you saw/did/tasted today?"

Software Q&A will live on SO, Programmers, and a few academic sites. That's it. Not dozens of ridiculously niche and redundant proposals. But the mere mention of merging proposals with Programmers horrifies most. "I don't want my subject on that site." That's a huge problem. Programmers.SE is the "Park Place" to Stack Overflow's "Boardwalk"; a tremendously valuable resource in a bad neighborhood. I'd prefer to paint over the graffiti and fix broken windows; to reestablish community pride so the police come out on occasion. But that's a far cry from "hater" or "actively despise.

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Edit 4

Jeff Atwood has created two topics with the basic premise that Programmers.SE as it is now is too undisciplined, and SOIS will be taking steps to correct that:

• Adding discipline to programmers.stackexchange.com
• Should “Developer Testing” be folded into a more general “Programmers” site?

Answer 1

One idea I had was to position ourselves as a sort of mechanical turk: yes, there is a proliferation of polls and greatly subjective questions, but that has value to a passerby because it's a great forum to get a variety of possible opinions about something.

Take Job hopping, is it a problem?, for example. There are a ton of different opinions, some similar to others, some completely divergent. There's very little evidence to support any one answer's perspective as being the canonical answer.

But the value in the question is being able to accumulate all possible perspectives on the issue in one shot so one can synthesize their own answer to a related question.

This could even be applied to the categorically silly questions like What is your favorite “programmer” cartoon?: if I was looking for programming cartoons for whatever reason, I could spend a lot of time performing Google searches, or I could just ask "What's your favorite programming cartoon?" on Programmers.SE and relatively quickly have a fairly-curated list of them.

Another example that would be beneficial to Stack Overflow (while still being off-topic there) are questions like What is your opinion of the new Java 7 features?. You can ask here to get a list of various opinions about a specific programming topic to get up to speed and so you can create an informed question or answer on Stack Overflow.

In short, I think we can keep being the garbage dump for Stack Overflow and still have some selling point when it comes time for Programmers.SE to be reviewed as being viable.

Answer 2

I'm here because I want this site to succeed. Not as "Questions we wish were allowed on SO", but as "Questions that can't be allowed on SO". A place for all the things that SO/SE was never designed for, or explicitly designed to prevent, but which massive numbers of users want anyway.

I really, really want this to be the SE "black sheep". Because like it or not, there's always a black sheep. It's a necessity. Look at all the forum systems that have a "lounge" or "soapbox" or "battlefront" set up for this very purpose: to relieve the pressure placed on the system by all the (overly-) enthusiastic users who would otherwise treat it like their personal playground. These are often the most popular forums on the site...

You may not like it that SO needs such a thing. I don't. I'd much rather see one or two "fun" questions slip past the voters each month, giving folks a chance to get it all out of their system, and then get quietly deleted or archived once the next month rolled around...

But wishful thinking doesn't change anything. Here already, there are a handful of users who not only want the "fun" questions to thrive, they want them moved back to SO! At some point, you have to compromise.

So my advice is, accept it, work with it. A cesspool may not be something you want to show off to guests, but you definitely don't want to do without one. So build the best you can...

Answer 3

I think Joel has a point. Since the site has moved from private beta to public beta it seems the questions are drifting further away from being programmer-related. Many are completely irrelevant questions with "for programmers" tacked on the end as token gesture.

I would like to see the site be for questions that are of interest to programmers in their capacity as programmers, rather than the "What are some good socks for programmers?" type of questions.

Answer 4

I'm not sure everyone is seeing the big picture... programmers.SE in a way is the white sheep, and SO is the black. But seriously, thats the pot calling the kettle black(hat)?

Everyone knows the most votes, the most views, the greatest gain in rank is and always has been the subjective-language-agnostic-poll-discussion.

For one, its why I'm here. Sure, SO has become a valuable resource to gain insights to things I do not know... quickly But I would have normally been able to figure it out eventually by sifting through pages and pages of poor search engine results.

But seriously, after so long as a programmer you get to know your stuff and you don't need to really research much... and after a very long time technologies change, you miss the news and before you know it something else has come along that's better, but you didn't know.

Part of the reason for having an almost never-ending-community-wiki-discussion-that-can-never-close is so that I CAN reference that tidbit of obscure programming history. I CAN find that joke that was hilarious I want to share with someone. I CAN find an outlet to vent about things with people that actually get it and are not all confused.. well because I'm talking in jargon.

I think everyone is here because we are all passionate about this. And the negatives I have heard I just do not see happening. Like seriously? People are really going to start trolling and flaming the programmers?

Do you know who we are?

Answer 5

What Joel has forgot to say in his awkward blog post, is that this "fairly stupid water-cooler nonsense" site has been created because all the dishoused questions, banned as "subjective and argumentative" or "off topic" on Stack Overflow, needed a new house.

Answer 6

It doesn't seem like people are discussing the underlying problem -- the incentive for posting silly shit. Namely, rep and badges.

Decry "rep whoring" and "badge whoring" all you like; people are still going to do it, because it feels good. It's a pat on the back from your peers! It's a freakin' score that you can make bigger, and get a series of escalating perks for making bigger! They're validation! They're sparkly baubles handed out for something you did! They're rewards. And if you're giving out rewards for behavior that's detrimental to the community, you're doing it wrong.

If we're going to trim down the silly shit, we need to 1) clearly define what constitutes "silly shit" and 2) ruthlessly slap "Community Wiki" on anything that meets that definition. I believe this is already the de-facto use of CW; it ought to be explicit.

(I'm guessing that the important step 3) of "Deny badges for any questions or answers designated 'Community Wiki'" isn't on the table, but it really needs to be. Badges are a lesser reward than rep because they don't get you perks, but they're a reward, too. As long as you reward a behavior, you encourage a behavior.)

(I'd also like a step 4) of "Rescind rep/badges earned between somebody asking the question and it getting designated 'Community Wiki'" for the same reason, but again, I'm guessing that's not an option -- and it raises all sorts of unpleasant "You just cost me 150 rep, you humorless bastard!" flamewar vendetta possibilities, so perhaps it's for the best.)

Fun questions are, well, fun, so people are always going to ask and answer them. Hell, I like taking a break to read what my peers think are good coder jokes. But they're also the fast-path to cheap rep and shiny badges. Make the fun factor the only reward, and you'll see less of them.

Answer 7

Programmers.SE has the potential to become the first place to look for best practices and theory about the programming profession. This will happen as long as we continue to get good questions and good answers to those questions. Eliminating the noise will help but isn't essential.

Answer 8

Personally, I just don't want to see deletionists get to programmers.SE like they did stackoverflow. Yeah, there are a bunch of crappy questions, but they can be ignored. Keep SO the well-controlled area for questions within a defined set of rules. Let programmers.SE cut loose a little bit!

Answer 9

I don't know that this needs to be the sludge-pool of SO.

There are a pile of questions that are programmer-related that are Frequently Asked on SO, but aren't about programming. That's - IMO - what this site is about.

Also, I have always disagreed with the anti-discussion stance of the Official People on SO. Discussion is very valuable, and there needs to be a place for it.

Answer 10

I think it will happen organically. We're still in public beta, and it's obvious that there's a difference of opinion (confusion even) about the purpose of Programmers.SE.

Once, as Shog9 says, we have our own set of rules and standards, (perhaps including a rule that forbids not-programming-related questions) then the wheat may be easier to sort from the chaff, and our reputation may improve.

EDIT

Joel's post has encouraged me to come back and revisit my original answer.

I didn't want Programmers to be ALL (or even mostly) polls/best-foo-for-programmers questions. But I do think the popularity of some of these type of (more relevant) polls that have existed on SO for some time (comic/t-shirt/music to code to) fit well here.

I do believe we need some way of restricting the number of these types of questions. I don't really want to see a proposal for a 3rd no-holds-barred, truly-anything-goes SE site for people who code, but I could imagine it being one possible way to resolve this.

Answer 11

So what if it's an "ocean of jokes and polls"! I'm lovin' it!